Ep. 15 Unbehaved: Meghan French Dunbar with Minda Harts

How To Stop Tolerating Broken Trust At Work

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

Whelp, this episode started off with a bang: the first thing I asked Minda about was whether she knew that she and I had something in common we'd never talked about: cheating ex-boyfriends. (Mine was Jimi. Hers was a Scott — which is hilarious because I'm now married to a Scott [a different Scott than the one Minda writes about]). Both of us walked into a moment, saw the broken trust for what it was, and walked back out. We didn't workshop it. We didn't try to "give it more time." The trust was broken — and we were done.

So why is it, then, that so many of us tolerate broken trust at work that we'd never tolerate in our personal relationships? That's the question Minda's new book Talk to Me Nice tries to answer — and in this episode, she lays out the Seven Trust Languages framework she built to help us understand what trust actually means to us, where it breaks down, and how to rebuild it (both at work and at home).

We get into the data that proves trust is a measurable business advantage (74% less anxious employees, 24% more productive, $344 billion lost to turnover every year), the three trust-breakers most managers don't even realize they're doing (micromanaging, weaponized CCs, ChatGPT-written emails), and why people-pleasing is actually eroding YOUR trustworthiness — not protecting it.

But one of the most memorable moments for me came when Minda told me about the question that's reshaped her whole career — "Who is benefiting from my courage?" She does the work she does, she said, because she's been the beneficiary of so many women whose names she'll never know — the ones who fought for pay equity, voting rights, all the ways forward that were already paved when she got there. And she wants someone, someday, to be the beneficiary of hers. That line filled my entire damn heart up, and speaks to the type of person Minda is. She has a different way of thinking about success and a different way of thinking about why she keeps going. And it's the heart of why this conversation lit me up and has inspired me ever since. 

 

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IN THIS EPISODE

A few of the things we get into, in conversation:

• The parallel between cheating ex-boyfriends and bad managers (yes, really)
• Why we spend 90,000 hours of our lives at work and accept less trust there than anywhere else
• What actually happens to employees who stay in low-trust environments too long
• Minda's confession of belonging to the "Church of Rumination"
• The Seven Trust Languages framework — and which two languages every manager should start with
• Why withholding the truth at work is a form of dishonesty
• The 74% / 24% / $344 billion data block that turns trust from a soft skill into a business imperative
• Three trust-breakers most managers don't realize they're doing — micromanaging, weaponized CCs, and ChatGPT-written emails
• Whether AI is going to outsource our humanity faster than we realize
• "The power of the pause" as Minda's most-relied-on leadership skill
• Soul success — and the question Minda asks herself when making decisions: "Who is benefiting from my courage?"
• Why Minda's current definition of success is one word: peace

Timestamps:

• 02:15 — Why we tolerate broken trust at work (and never would from a partner)
• 05:10 — Why employees blame themselves when trust breaks down
• 07:03 — Self-advocacy in real time: Minda's story of saying no
• 11:59 — Why people-pleasing erodes YOUR trustworthiness
• 13:21 — The 74% less anxious stat + naming what you need
• 16:03 — Withholding the truth is a form of dishonesty
• 19:56 — The Seven Trust Languages: where managers should start
• 23:50 — The business case for trust: $344B and 24% more productive
• 27:24 — Top trust breakers: micromanaging, weaponized CCs, ChatGPT emails
• 29:58 — Are we outsourcing our humanity to AI?
• 35:32 — Soul success: "Who is benefiting from my courage?"
• 38:39 — Why Minda defines success as peace 

 

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A FEW THINGS THAT STAYED WITH ME

"If you expect trust in your romantic and platonics, then you should expect that at a place you're going to spend 90,000 hours of your life at." — Minda Harts

"Trust could be there at nine and be gone by nine-oh-three." — Minda Harts

"It's not selfish for me to tell you what I need. It's selfless." — Minda Harts

 "Humans are the ones making these decisions. We are the ones opting in." — Minda Harts

"As a woman, I've benefited from so many women that I will never know their names. So many people that fought for pay equity. So many people that fought for voting. I may never know who they were — but I know I'm a beneficiary of that courage." — Minda Harts

"Someone will be a beneficiary of my courage. And so I keep shaking the tables. Because I know that if I don't, then somebody doesn't get what they need later down the line." — Minda Harts

"Success is peace." — Minda Harts

 

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ABOUT MINDA HARTS

Minda Harts is the bestselling author of The Memo and Talk to Me Nice, a TEDx speaker, and a workplace equity advocate whose work has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Time, and Forbes. She's the founder of The Memo LLC and one of the most influential voices in workplace culture today — and a self-described former member of the Church of Rumination. Talk to Me Nice is available wherever books are sold.

Find her at MindaHarts.com and on LinkedIn.

 

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CONNECT WITH MEGHAN

• Book: This Isn't Working
• Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com
• Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meghanfrenchdunbar 

 

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Cleaned for clarity. Filler words and audio artifacts removed; conversational cadence preserved. Speaker labels and timestamps as recorded.

Meghan French Dunbar (02:15) All right, Minda, you and I have something in common that I don't think you know about — because I've never told you about it. Cheating ex-boyfriends. Both of us legit surprising our boyfriends and coming home to find them with other women. Mine was Jimi. Yours was Scott — which is hilarious because I'm married to a Scott, and you talked about "not being a Scott in the workplace" and I was like, that's hysterical.

But the thing that I found really interesting about your book — and an insight that came up for me — was, I think we bifurcate our concepts of personal and professional. And as a part of that, there are things that we aren't willing to tolerate in our personal relationships that for some reason we tolerate in our professional ones. And your thesis of this entire book is that one of the primary things is we tolerate broken trust.

Both of us come home to our cheating boyfriends, they're gone. Broken trust, signed, sealed, delivered, we are over. And in the workplace, we're willing to tolerate — and we've normalized — somewhat emotionally abusive relationships built on broken trust in many of the contemporary workplaces.

A lot of that, of course, is coming down to: we have livelihoods, we have to put a roof over our heads, and it's really hard to change. So — what are the main consequences (mental health, physical health, whatever it might be) that you've seen of people staying in low-trust environments for too long?

Minda Harts (03:41) Where do we begin…

Meghan French Dunbar (03:42) I know. And — go.

Minda Harts (03:45) Well, I think this is something really important, because I had this aha moment on the way to the bathroom, like a few years ago during COVID, and I'm like — trust issues, right? Like you said, we normalize them at work but we don't tolerate it outside of work to some degree.

And I thought to myself: if people are saying bring your authentic self to work, trust is the same, right? I should have the same bar for trust in my personal and professional lives.

And also too — it's not enough to do a trust fall at work and then go back to work and let somebody tell you lies, give you lip service — because you're not going to be able to do your best work. And I want people to realize that if you expect trust in your romantic and platonics, then you should expect that at a place you're going to spend 90,000 hours of your life at.

Because you're not going to be productive, you're not going to do your best work. And if you're a company, you're not going to have good retention if people don't trust you.

And trust isn't necessarily I tell you all the things you want to hear — it's also telling you when I don't have the answers, or, yeah, you do hear the sirens and I'm not sure why, but you're not stupid and you hear them, right? I'm not going to pretend they're not happening.

That's the piece of the puzzle I want people to normalize — saying it's okay to talk about when we have these breakdowns. Because let's get it back on the tracks.

Meghan French Dunbar (05:10) Yeah. I'm curious as well about — at least my experience of the broken trust in my personal relationship was, I started questioning myself. I took a bit of a hit — not a bit, a large hit — to my sense of self-worth and questioning what I did wrong.

And I'm curious how that manifests with employees and people who are working at really low-trust environments. How much do you see people blaming themselves, or taking on this guilt or shame or concern themselves?

Minda Harts (05:42) Yeah, I think we do that. And I talk about that in the book — what does trust look like to you? Because we don't typically ask ourselves: okay, what are the behaviors? What are the attributes or the characteristics where trust means something to me? It may mean something different to somebody else, but what's important to me?

And people would tell me, "I don't trust my manager," or "I don't trust my colleague," or "I don't trust HR." And what they were really saying was that there was this expectation that they had of someone else that they may not be aware of.

And I say: okay, well — once you identify what it is you need to do your best work or to be most productive, what would it look like to advocate for yourself? You're good enough to deserve humanity, dignity, and respect in every space you enter. So what does it look like to have that conversation?

Because I think sometimes things get lost in translation. I don't think anyone shows up to work, Meghan, and says, "How can I erode trust with Minda today?" I hope they don't do that. But it happens — because of this communication crisis.

I think we just have to normalize letting people know what good looks like to us. And some of us need to be reminded of that — and be told, you should be able to tell someone when they've fallen short in a way that still enhances trust instead of erodes it.

Meghan French Dunbar (07:03) Speaking of self-advocacy — I'm like, I don't even know if we've actually talked about this. You and I are in an authors group together, so we get to talk occasionally, but we don't do a lot of one-on-ones.

So I asked you to be a speaker at my event in January of 2020 — the World Changing Women's Summit. The Memo had just come out. Everyone was talking about you. I was like, Yes, we're going to get Minda.

And we were designing the flow of the event down to the last minute, because we really wanted to have a conversation about the different experiences that white women and women of color were having in workplaces — in the context of a 200-person women-only gathering. It was the first time we'd done it. So we were kind of all over the place.

It meant that as you were looking for answers on what this speaking engagement was going to look like — every time we came back to you, we had a different idea or concept. We were just all over the place.

And at some point, you so gracefully were like, You know what? I don't know if this is going to be the right thing for me. Perhaps in the future.

And one — you did it in such a lovely way that I was like, I'm not even mad. I understand why she did this. But the thing that I've always thought of you when I think of this is self-advocacy. Knowing at what point to say, meh, this isn't really working for me. Prioritizing your comfort as much as other people's comfort.

How have you developed this? In the book you talk about it in terms of being sensitive to yourself. How has this developed for you? Is it something you've always had, or have you had to build this skill over time?

Minda Harts (08:34) Thank you. And yeah — well, thank you for acknowledging that, Meghan. I do appreciate that. And I do remember it.

I was actually going through some old emails recently and I'm like, Wait — me and Meghan have been connected for longer than I… And I'm glad it came to this.

What I will say is: no, I haven't always been this person. I'm still practicing and flexing the self-advocacy muscle so much.

And that's essentially what the Trust Languages is all about. It's letting people know where your comfort level lies, and then they can opt in or out of that. But I can't assume that people are going to go around with a crystal ball and say, "What has been the need in this situation?"

I think I was expecting that. And then I'd disappoint myself when people weren't showing up in the ways that I thought they could — or because I'm just grateful to be here, I shouldn't say anything about what trust or comfort or security looks like to me.

As I started writing about it and talking about it at different conferences, I thought: Well, girl, you better be doing this for yourself too. Because we love to give advice to people on what they should be doing, but you have to demonstrate it too.

And that goes back to the first question — that self-trust. Am I trusting how I'm experiencing a certain situation, good, bad, or indifferent? And then we can open up communication, because a lot of trust breakdowns are just — we aren't communicating expectations to each other.

I just wanted to give people language and tools to be able to say: Okay, you know what it looks like when you just sweep it under the rug and then things just continue to get bad. What could it look like if we do it a different way?

Meghan French Dunbar (10:17) I'm curious about people's responses to you. Because I always catastrophize — imagining once I speak up and tell something, you know, I'm honest about what I need, that I'm going to make someone uncomfortable or there's going to be conflict. I always just used to imagine there'd always be conflict if I spoke up for myself. That's my own shit.

But as you were practicing this skill, how did you feel like people responded or received your ability to just tell people what you need?

Minda Harts (10:46) I think people were surprised initially, Meghan. Because I'm very accommodating — to a fault at times.

Once I started to shift the dynamics of, you do have thoughts about this, you do have a point of view on this, or you can say no — I think that kind of shook people in a different way.

And I have to say, thankful to the therapists that have helped me over the years to hone into that — I was not being trustworthy with how I was showing up to people. Because trust is a two-way street. And if I'm not being transparent, then that's an erosion of trust.

So I also wanted to demonstrate what trust looks like from me. To reassess and allow people to experience a different version of myself.

And I feel like — I'm better for it, and people are better for it. Because essentially what we're talking about is boundaries. And once people know where your line is, then they know: okay, I'm going to get up real close, or I'm going to cross it, or not.

I think the gray area with trust is where there are no boundaries and I'm silently suffering. To your point, it's saying: it's not selfish for me to tell you what I need. It's selfless.

Meghan French Dunbar (11:59) This point I want to just hit on a little bit more. Because my MO — I used to be a chronic people pleaser, super conflict avoidant. And one of the ways this manifested was not telling anyone what I needed, just expecting everyone… quietly resenting them, maybe talking poorly about them behind their back because of whatever they did that, you know, they should have known — when in reality I hadn't been speaking up for myself.

And when I had employees and team members, I was always the nice boss who never gave people feedback. And as you pointed out with the Trust Languages, feedback is mission critical to trust.

My experience of you when you spoke up and were like, You know what, I'm gonna pass on this event — was not, Oh, Minda. It was, Wow, I just watched someone draw a really clear boundary, and I feel respect for you, and I admire you. I would like to be like that.

I see this a lot. Not to overgeneralize, but it's been my experience that a lot of the women I've talked to really struggle with advocating for themselves and providing feedback because they're worried about causing discomfort to other people.

But what I'm hearing from you is — that's actually making you untrustworthy. It is a key element of trust.

So how do you see this showing up, and how do you help people move beyond the people-pleaser mentality?

Minda Harts (13:21) Right. Well, I also want to say that when I did have that conversation, you were so gracious. You weren't like, I'm gonna blackmail you for the rest of your life, you know? You could have responded that way to me. But you didn't.

And I was new in my speaking practice at the time. And I'll tell you — I spiraled probably for months after that. Because I'm a former member of the Church of Rumination. I ruminate, ruminate, ruminate.

But I realized that this is part of being a business owner. This is part of being where people have — you set boundaries. And that's not just with that situation. That's: okay, what does good look like across the board? That's something I know I needed for my wellbeing.

And part of trust is letting people know what good looks like, so that you don't have anxiety, so that you don't have the depression.

One of the statistics from Gallup says that when trust is present, people are 74% less anxious. I can't control how somebody responds to what I've said. But I can control feeling better about: I trust my voice. I trust that this is what I need so that I can show up better in other areas of my life.

That's what I keep coming back to. People can't show you what good looks like if you don't tell them. And we can't assume that people know what that is for us.

That's why I really created the Trust Languages. Because we are silently hoping and praying that somebody gives us security, or gives us transparency, or is more sympathetic. And people are like, No, I don't need that, so I'm not going to give that to you. Typically we give what we feel most comfortable in a trust language.

So I think we're doing people a disservice when we don't tell them what it looks like.

I wrote the Trust Languages with a workplace context, but it's really also just about how we show up. Because — say your partner, for example. They just want you to acknowledge that, Hey, I know I don't have to make the breakfast, but you do make the breakfast every morning. And, Yeah, you should, because I do all these other things.

But that's how you might feel — it's that that person wants to be valued, and they don't trust that you see them. So you may not need the gold star for everything. But somebody you work with, somebody you live with — they need that from you. And that's a trust language they need you to speak.

I think we just have to be more empathetic and sensitive to what people need. And then when they tell us, there's a choice — how we respond is also going to enhance or erode that relationship.

This is about relationship building, too. And this is what we need no matter where we show up.

Meghan French Dunbar (16:03) Yeah. One of the bigger realizations I had in my attempt to become better at dealing with conflict and communicating my needs was that withholding my truth was, in fact, a form of dishonesty. I hated finally coming to terms with that.

And I feel like this is, again, something we normalize in the workplace — withholding information from huge swaths of workers.

You had this fabulous story in the book — I think it was about Stanley, the manager, who was very transparent with you about upcoming layoffs. And as his report, you were like, Oh my gosh, I'm so heartened that he talked to me about this. This makes it so I can plan for the future. But he had been told by management not to share this information with you.

So a lot of cultures are built on dishonesty — on withholding information.

I think one of the most common pieces of feedback I get, because I advocate for transparency — I talk a lot about open book management and systematic ways in which sharing information actually improves the workplace — people always push back and are like, Well, if people have this information, they're going to panic. Or, If people have this information, they can steal it and go run their… — like, bleh.

For the anti-transparency crowd — and I promise I'm getting to the question — what is the immediate pushback that you have when people are just like, No, I don't want to be transparent and share information with people. How do you get around that?

Minda Harts (17:29) Yeah. Well, I think people need to do a book club with both of our books because they complement each other really well.

I'll put myself in this position. I grew up in a household — in a Black household — where transparency wasn't the go-to. My parents were like, Don't tell people your business. I knew no better. That was ingrained.

So I grew up kind of being like, Nobody needs to know this about me. And you have all of these friends that you know everything about, but nobody knows anything about you. And it's kind of a lonely place to be for a while.

When I get into romantic relationships, my partner would say, You're not being transparent. And I'd be like, Well, what does that look like? Why do you need that? Why do you need this information? I'm okay with not knowing these things.

And what I realized was — some people need that clarity, that honesty. And if you're not good at giving it, you need to check yourself and say why that is.

Now, my manager gave us all the information. Maybe you're in a situation where you can't give everybody from A to Z what's going on. But what we can do is give people breadcrumbs. What we can do is humanize that somebody is on the other end of this email that we are sending. Someone's on the other end of this decision.

So yes, I don't have all the answers today — but tell people that. If we just laid off 2,000 of their workplace friends, don't pretend that didn't just happen. Acknowledge that. Yeah, we are going through hard times and we are making some adjustments, but we'll try to keep you in the loop. Or, We know that we're going to use AI tools, but it's moving so fast, so we don't have all the answers right now.

That's what people need. They don't need to know A to Z, but they want you to acknowledge the elephants in the room.

As leaders, we can give that to people. We don't have to just pretend that everything is good when you know that everybody smells the smoke in the room.

That's gonna go back to the 74% less anxious. Yes, I don't know all the information, but they've given us what they have right now.

That's the piece I hope leaders, hope HR — remember that people are human first and employees second. And — I know Jack Nicholson said you can't handle the truth. But people CAN handle the truth.

Meghan French Dunbar (19:56) For people who manage teams — you have seven Trust Languages. As the book has been coming out, have you found that there are any that people seem to be gravitating to as the lowest-hanging fruit — like the quote-unquote easiest or quickest ways to start rebuilding trust that people can just get to in the next month?

Minda Harts (20:18) Yes. So I find that one of the Trust Languages is security — and that's that psychological, emotional, and intellectual safety.

There are seven Trust Languages. I don't expect we'll all be bilingual in all seven. But if you could reach for one or two tools — if I'm going to have a conversation with someone, maybe the conversation isn't that I'm going to give them more feedback when I know we already have some issues going on. Maybe I'm going to approach this conversation with some psychological safety. Because that's going to get the most.

I'm thinking about: how do I want this conversation to end? I'm not just thinking about getting what I need to say and moving on. I want us to be able to look each other in the eye on Zoom, or in the hallway when we see each other at the next on-site.

So having that psychological safety is important. If there is an issue, do you feel comfortable even coming to tell me? Because I know there are power dynamics at play.

And then the other one — a good low-hanging fruit — is acknowledgment. We're in a climate right now where everybody's not getting a bonus. Everybody's not getting a salary increase. But we can tell somebody: You know what, thanks for that report that you did in Q4. If it wasn't for that insight, I don't know where we'd be today. Thanks, Meghan.

Or, I know that I've been out on PTO for the last whatever. And thank you for making sure that my clients are still taken care of. I really appreciate that.

That's going to make you feel seen and valued. That's going to keep trust at the center, because now you know I value you. And that's something each and every one of us can do right now.

Again — you may not care about being acknowledged. Your trust language is leave me alone and let me do my work. But somebody else does. They need that from you. They're craving that from you.

And I think no matter who you are, everybody appreciates being seen and valued for their work.

Meghan French Dunbar (21:58) And I want to underline something. It was fun to see things that crossed over in both of our books. But something you just said that you also have in your book — that I talked about in my book — is the importance of specific acknowledgment. Not, great job last week, but, I was out on PTO and I saw that you did this exact thing, and this is how it helped me. The more specific and granular it can be, the better.

Just triple-underlining that point.

Meghan French Dunbar (22:35) As this book has been going out and you've been consulting with other workplaces, have you found an example or two of really great high-trust workplaces that you're just like, I love everything about what they're doing?

Minda Harts (22:51) I think a lot of workplaces are struggling — and with a lot of different things, because we have a lot going on in our world.

But what I do value, and what I think is important, is those workplaces who are taking the surveys, and many are seeing that trust has taken a hit — and they're acknowledging that. They're working toward it. They're talking about it.

Because I think some companies are like, Oh, we see they said trust is an issue. But let's not acknowledge it. Let's move on to the next thing. Because: Everything's fine here.

And I love the company who knows that there's some room for improvement. Yeah, we haven't gotten it right. Yeah, we might've just laid off people. Yeah, we're having a bunch of reorgs. But we hear you, and we see you. So let's have some conversations. Let's put some strategies in place so we can have better conversations.

Those are the companies that win and have better retention rates, I think, going forward. As opposed to the company that's like, Just be happy you have a job. Go sit back down. Make sure that green light is still moving.

That is where I'm optimistic — that there's so many companies who are reaching out, saying, Please come talk to us about how we can communicate better, and how we can continue to have better trust even if it's taken a hit.

Meghan French Dunbar (23:50) So I think you've mentioned two already of the benefits of the high-trust workplace — people not being as anxious. And then you just mentioned retention.

And you had a line in the book that I was like, That is so good. I mean, so many lines. The Casa Amigos thing — I was hysterical. But you mentioned that when you're at a high-trust workplace, you can raise hell together. And when you're at a low-trust workplace, it's just hell. And I was like, Yup. Preach.

I'm curious about this — raise hell together. You and I are both research dorks. What is the business case for building a high-trust culture?

Minda Harts (24:40) Yes. Well, one thing I'll say is, when trust is present, we're 24% more productive. So I don't know any company who doesn't want more productivity going to their bottom line.

And another big data point: $344 billion a year is lost in employee turnover.

So listen. Trust is not — we just put on our favorite Taylor Swift songs, put on our robes, and do the fall. It's actually good for business. This is good for your bottom line.

I would encourage you to make sure trust is in the room and not left in the bathroom or in the car. Because this is good for your bottom line. It's good for your management. It's good for your mental health. And wellbeing in the workplace.

So trust is a business imperative. And I want to really hone in on that. Because I think sometimes we think of trust as this foo-foo thing — that it's just nice to have. But no. It's a must-have.

I definitely think there's no future of work without trust. That's just how I feel about it.

So managers — you cannot afford the cost of you not being transparent. That's going to take a hit. You not providing psychological security inside the workplace — that's going to take a hit. You may not want to speak all these seven Trust Languages, but get one or two in your toolkit. Because that's going to help your team and their productivity.

Meghan French Dunbar (26:04) Yeah. I think the Gallup State of the Workplace report came out this week and disengagement — global disengagement — is at 80%. And I'm like, if you keep throwing unlimited snacks and pinball machines instead of working on trust and basic systemic issues, nothing is going to change.

So I'm just like — every human being that works at a company, go hire Minda, because she's going to save everything.

Minda Harts (26:30) Well, bring us both. We need something.

But I want to say something — that you said, Meghan, is that part of it is, I think oftentimes we think trust is just automatic. Trust has to be demonstrated. We know that trust could be there at nine and gone by nine-oh-three.

So it's really important that we have mechanisms where, when we do fall short — again, not intentionally — that we talk about the things.

I want to be able to have a team that I can trust. But we can't, as managers, be like, I have to be able to trust you, but you don't have to trust me.

And I think anybody who thinks that their employees are doing their best work under stress and ambiguity — you've got another thing. Good luck. Good luck. Good luck.

Meghan French Dunbar (27:19) [laughing] Good luck. God speed.

Meghan French Dunbar (27:24) I'm curious — these managers, we've talked a little bit about some of the trust-breakers. Here's some stuff that you're doing that, I guarantee, are breaking the trust. Like withholding information.

Are there some of just top trust-breakers that you see that you're just like, this should be on a checklist of "do not do at all costs" if you're a manager?

Minda Harts (27:48) Yes. So one of them, you wouldn't be surprised — is micromanaging. What is that demonstrating? They can't get their work done. Why did I hire you? I can't trust you.

You may not think that what you're doing is micromanaging. But that person — that's signaling to them that you don't trust their work. That you don't trust that they're going to get it done.

They're adults. You hired them for a reason. So let them do that — unless they show you differently.

Another one is email correspondence. Oftentimes — I don't know if you've had this happen, I know I have — people will email you and CC somebody else on it who has no business being CC'd on it. You're like, Wait. Why did you CC my manager on this when I just saw you in the break room? Or I just had a Zoom with you?

And I create the narrative that you're trying to take me down. That you don't want me. That you're trying to get me in trouble. Whereas you might've just said, You know what, I CC'd our manager because I knew I'd get a response faster.

You're not thinking about how this is an erosion of trust to me. So we create this narrative and neither of us have a conversation about it. I just keep side-eyeing you every time I see you, and we typically don't have a conversation.

That's another erosion of trust. Like, why wouldn't you come to me first instead of bringing somebody else in?

Or another one — a lot of us are using ChatGPT to help us write emails. I tell ChatGPT to do the thing, then you get it and you tell it to do the thing — and now they're just talking to each other and we don't talk about it.

We've missed the plot. Nobody's humanizing each other and listening to what's really being said. We're just getting our grammar right and getting directly to the point.

That, again, is — we're outsourcing our humanity. And I don't think we think about it in those terms. But that's an erosion of trust. I don't have the time to read this. I got to send it to somebody else. And they miss some of those nuances.

So these are things we can do right away. I'm not saying don't use these tools. But don't let it take the place of humanizing and the nuance in the care.

Meghan French Dunbar (29:58) So glad you brought this up. You had another line in the book — I think it was about productivity trumping humanity. And I was like — that's pretty much what we've built the entire shareholder supremacy culture of business on in the last 50-plus years. And AI? Oh my god.

So — our neighbor, who was just talking to us about how right now he is building the automations to essentially take over his role. They're pretty much making him dig his own grave. And I'm like, this is inhumane. This is so messed up that they're making him do this.

And the place of trust with AI. I know this is an evolving topic, but for example — I was working with a consulting group. When the book was coming out, they were going to give me all sorts of strategy. And then when they came to me with the deck, they were like, Okay, we put this into ChatGPT, and here's what we came up with. And I was like, You didn't come up with this. ChatGPT did.

It was a breach of trust for me. I was immediately like, I could have done this. I'm so angry. Why did I pay you?

This stripping of humanity from the work process — that more of us are getting conditioned to do.

You wrote the book before AI was really coming online. How is your perspective with AI and trust — and how we continue to be humans first — how is it progressing? What's coming up?

Minda Harts (31:24) Yeah. I am concerned, I'll say. Because I think we've outsourced the humanity so fast. We're like, Oh, let it do it, and then I don't have to.

Yes, we want efficiency — that's important. We want productivity. But we don't want to hand it over.

And I hear so many people say, AI is taking over. No. Humans are the ones making these decisions. We are the ones opting in. And that is not trustworthy — especially when we don't give people a reason why we're doing it.

We've heard some companies sending emails out the morning of, and people not having their jobs — or those sorts of things. And it's like, Did we have to do it this way?

Yes, we can bring in AI. But we could still upskill our employees so that they can also be part of the process. Let's make their jobs a little bit easier. But we don't have to make them easy enough where they don't have a job anymore.

When we aren't transparent, when we don't have the conversations, when we don't have a feedback loop — then we, again, miss the plot.

So I am concerned about our humanity. Again — I don't blame AI. We are creating these tools. We're training these tools. So where do we say, You know what — yes, AND we still have a workforce that needs to be empowered. And here's how we're using it to do that. Not to eliminate you. To supplement your creativity, to help you do your best work.

I don't hear a lot of people talking about how the supplemental piece works.

I'm concerned — but I do think that the more voices that show up and that we get to role model what trustworthy looks like — Be the manager that says, we're using this to supplement, not eliminate.

Here's what it looks like. Yes, we are going to use this, but here's how it's going to help you in your job. Nobody's telling people that. And I think oftentimes it's because they don't know.

But number two — talk about those things. I think we just have missed the plot on: people are not robots yet. They're still human. So talk to them in a way that humanizes and respects them.

All of it's evolving and we don't have all the answers. But what we do know is that humanity is the only thing that's going to solve this disconnect of trust.

Meghan French Dunbar (33:46) I'm curious for you — how your perspective of leadership has evolved. What skills are you relying on now the most that you maybe once didn't think of as leadership skills?

Minda Harts (33:59) You know, I think the how to have better conversations.

I mean, yes — I like to talk. You — we like to talk. We get paid to talk. So you're just like, I'm good at this.

But what I realized I wasn't good at is sometimes being more sensitive, more empathetic, to when people are telling me something. For example, someone might tell you, That manager said X, Y, and Z to me. How would that make you feel? And I would find myself saying, I wouldn't care too much about that, I would just… And I had to stop myself to say:

You know what — that may not impact me. But that's impacting you. And if I dismiss how it's making you feel, then that's impacting the relationship and the trust that you and I have. Because you're probably not going to come to me and tell me anything else about this situation. Because I've already eroded the trust. Again — not intentionally.

So for me it's listening to the things people aren't saying. And that's having that emotional intelligence — realizing that my tone, my behavior, my actions, they have either a positivity toward trust or a negativity.

And every situation I encounter these days, I'm more hyper-aware of: if I say or do this thing, is it going to enhance this relationship or erode this relationship?

I try really hard, Meghan, even at home, with family members. Okay, I might want to say that thing — but let me pause.

The power of the pause is so important with trust with people. I think it's not a soft skill — it's definitely a leadership skill that I think all leaders should practice a little bit more.

Meghan French Dunbar (35:32) You were building this fabulous career, low trust, all the things — you've left. And then The Memo, two more books, your new bestseller Talk to Me Nice. You're doing film projects.

My story is that you've been following a bit more of where your soul has been called rather than the traditional path. I call it soul success.

How did you move from I'm building a career and trying to work myself up the ladder to I'm going to follow the pull wherever it's taking me — I'm going to follow my passion, my curiosity, the impact that I want to make? How has that looked for you for the last, I don't know — it's been like seven years? Six? And how is it informing where you're going next?

Minda Harts (36:19) I love that — and I need that t-shirt: soul success.

Meghan French Dunbar (36:25) It's a whole chapter in the book. We'll discuss it in our next thing. It's going to be great.

Minda Harts (36:28) I know. That's why I need the shirt. I'm like, Where's the merch?

You know, it's interesting because I grew up very humble beginnings. And so the thing that really pushed me through much of my corporate career was money, money, money. Security. Financially — how do I never return back to what I once knew.

That really fueled a lot of my decision-making about partnership, the ladder. I never really sat back to think: What is it that Minda wants?

And what if I trusted my gut — could it be yes? Could I be successful, but could I also do it in a way that feels authentic to me and creates longevity and makes spaces better than what I found them?

Once I started to lean into that, I realized I could be financially stable and still do good. And so that's always just helped me do — can I look myself in the mirror every morning and be happy with the decisions that I'm making?

That's how, even saying yes to things — or saying no to things — does this enhance the path? Does it add to where I want to be?

And part of that is, I don't just do things that make it better for me. I'm thinking about the next generation who's benefiting from my courage.

I do things because I know, as a woman, I've benefited from so many women that I will never know their names. So many people that fought for pay equity. So many people that fought for voting. I may never know who they were — but I know I'm a beneficiary of that courage.

So that's what fuels me. Knowing that hopefully someone will be a beneficiary of my courage.

And so I keep pushing the boundaries to some degree. I keep shaking the tables. Because I know that if I don't, then somebody doesn't get what they need later down the line.

Meghan French Dunbar (38:21) That just stopped my entire being. Who's benefiting from my courage?

One of the things we used to open some of our events with was asking people to think about whose shoulders they were standing on to be in the room. This can be ancestral, or the women coming before us, or the women of color. It is just such a grounding force to remember how quick this little time we have is — and it's a source of courage to hopefully make it better.

Thank you for that. I want that on a poster. We are making t-shirts and posters after this.

Meghan French Dunbar (38:39) I'm curious about your current concept or definition of success for yourself. How do you think about success now?

Minda Harts (38:59) I definitely think about it differently. But I think about success as peace.

And maybe that's — you know, I just had a birthday this week, so I think about aging and longevity. But I think about peace.

If I'm making good decisions, then I'll have peace in my bank account. If I'm making good decisions with my interactions, then there's peace with my family members. There's peace with those I love. And with my colleagues.

So I think for me, it's just — success is those things that make me still feel good. And I know that sounds cliché, but Beyoncé has a song line that she says: the feeling is everything.

And it's the feeling for me. If I know that I'm writing books that people email me and say, Thank you for naming that — that helps me have a better conversation with my manager, or a better conversation with my child — then that brings me peace. And that means that what I'm doing is still working. And that's success.

And I started, Meghan, writing The Memo thinking that would be the only book I'd ever write. It came out of a place of pain — wanting to be able to create a space to talk about things we weren't talking about. And I would have never guessed that I'd be on book four. That was never the goal.

So I realized that not having a plan, sometimes, has been the best piece in some regards.

Meghan French Dunbar (40:25) I love this. Even just you saying that success is peace — I felt myself take a breath and be like, Yes.

What are the things you're starting to think about next — that you're wanting to say, that you're finding that people are shying away from? If anything.

Minda Harts (40:40) You know what — I feel like I've been really fortunate and privileged to be able to say the things that I've wanted to say in a way that people may not be thinking about them.

That's what I really love about this current book, Talk to Me Nice — because trust has been around for a long time. I didn't coin that phrase. But I'm asking people to rethink about what it looks like.

I was recently speaking at a real estate conference, and I was talking about the seven Trust Languages, and I had a gentleman stop me in the hallway, and he said, You know, I took a screenshot of that, because I have a five-year-old daughter, and I think we need to talk to her about what trust looks like, and how she can cultivate trust and give trust.

That made me feel so good. And I thought, Wait a second — these Trust Languages have so much more of a life to live.

So I think I'm just thinking about those ways in which we can still keep trust as the main character in every facet of our life.

You mentioned filmmaking. So I'm telling stories that remind us of human connection. And where trust falls — not because we want it to, but because sometimes our actions and our behaviors, good or bad, they impact that.

So for me now, it's taking some of the concepts that I've written about and showing them through a different medium. Because let's be honest — some people will never read our books, Meghan. But they might catch the concept in other forms of storytelling.

Meghan French Dunbar (42:07) [laughing] Pretty sure everyone's read mine. The numbers. No.

All right — obviously people can find you on the interwebs. Where do you hope people plug in with you most?

Minda Harts (42:17) If you like to go to people's websites, you can go to MindaHarts.com. And you can find me wherever you like to play in your social streets. I spend the majority of my time these days on LinkedIn, so definitely find me there.

Meghan French Dunbar (42:33) Yeah. And go grab Talk to Me Nice. It's just so damn good. You're so good. Thank you. Just profound gratitude for everything.

Minda Harts (42:40) Well, thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you for seeing me a long time ago when a lot of people were probably afraid of The Memo. I appreciate you for being here and still rocking with me. So thank you.